The closet used to be a very crowded place

[mysid]

I happened to come across a HP fanfic this morning in which James and Peter find it completely obvious that Sirius and Remus fancy each other, but perhaps Sirius and Remus are being a bit slow figuring it out. It struck me just how often I read stories in which characters: friends, teachers, casual acquaintances spend a little bit of time with Remus and Sirius (or some other slash pairing of the same time period) and quickly deduce that they are gay. "It's so obvious," they say, or something to that effect.

But, no, it wouldn't have been obvious, and this is why. In the 60's and 70's, being in the closet was still the norm. Sodomy was still a criminal offense in the UK until 1972, and even then it was illegal with anyone under 21. (In the USA, it's still illegal in many states, and in many of them the legal definition of sodomy includes both oral sex and anal sex.) Being in the closet was a necessity.

And because most homosexuals were still closeted, those around them tended to be ignorant of how common it was. Homosexuality simply wasn't part of the social consciousness. If someone heard that two men lived together, she didn't assume they were a couple. She probably didn't even wonder if they were a couple. The most likely assumption to be made was that they lived together to share the rent. It's very likely they were a couple--but no one around them was really that likely to assume so.

Someone on my friends-list recently mused on the fact they we are the last generation who have had to adjust to the existence of the internet. Kids today don't know what it was like not to have Google, Wikipedia, and Mapquest at their fingertips.

Perhaps I am also part of the last generation to remember what it was like not to know that homosexuality existed. My kids are growing up very aware of it as a part of everyday life; their friend next door has two moms. The tv is full of shows with gay characters. But in my generation, it was still the shameful secret that no one dared discuss. I'm so glad things have changed, but for the sake of those of you younger than me, let me tell you about the slow eye-opening that an old fogey (age 39) like me went through.

Junior High-Two of my female cousins and I were discussing kissing. (None of us had kissed a boy yet.) Suddenly, one of them kissed me--open mouth, French kiss. I shoved her away and said, "Girls don't kiss girls. Girls only kiss boys." And I believed it whole-heartedly.

High School--I went to an all-girls school in the early 80's. In the middle of my junior year (age 16), our gym teacher (a woman) was suddenly fired. Rumors spread around the school that she and one of my classmates, Kitty, had become sexually involved. (In retrospect, I kind of doubt it. It's more likely that the girl facing some very confusing feelings had found a sympathetic ear in a kindred spirit. But the damage was done.) The teacher was fired, and Kitty was socially ostracized for a time. I still thought of being gay as something very, very rare. I had no reason not to.

I imagined that of the entire school (250 students) Kitty was the only one who was gay; now I know for a fact that she wasn't. My of my closest friends and I frequently used to double date. Every time Lori got a new boyfriend, she'd ask if he had a friend for me. Now Lori is happily living with another woman and their two children.

University--During my freshman year (age 18; 1984-855), a group of women on my hall befriended another freshman I'll call John. John was flamingly gay--but I didn't realize it. In retrospect, it was completely obvious—but only in retrospect. The fact that it didn’t occur to me at the time proves that homosexuality just wasn't a part of my world view. I knew it existed, but I couldn't imagine that I might know anyone who was gay.

By senior year (1987-88), I had wised up a bit. I remember having a heart-to heart talk with a classmate named David. His gushing about a friend of his left me convinced that David was head over heels in love with the friend—but in deep denial. My gentle hints that his admiration for his friend went beyond mere friendship fell on deaf ears. It was just as well; David's religious beliefs made homosexuality a no-no.

What happened in between the two years? A very gradual eye-opening. I remember having a conversation with my roommate and her sorority "Big Sister," Stephanie. Stephanie was on the women's rugby team, and somehow it came up in our conversation that there was a rumor that the entire team were lesbians. I thought that was perfectly ridiculous stereotyping, athletic girls=lesbians, (and I still do) and in pointing out how ridiculous it was, I said, "You're on the team, and you aren't gay." Stephanie looked uncomfortable, my roommate gave me the "Shut up immediately!" look, and someone changed the subject. Yes, I got the message: Stephanie was gay; however, Stephanie was so normal (yes, I was doing some stereotyping of my own) that I didn't really believe it for a long time.

Today--Now I look around and I see my neighbors, a f/f couple, openly raising a child together. I know that my cousin in NYC is openly in a long-term relationship with another woman. I know that her mother left my uncle because she fell in love with a woman, but I didn't know that until two decades after it happened. I turn on my tv, and I can chose between watching Will and Grace, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, The L Word, etc. The world has definitely changed.

Comments

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent point, and I think you're right. I don't think I became aware that a good many people were homosexual until halfway through high school. That was 1996/7. I first heard the word "lesbian" in fifth grade, and had no idea what it meant.

(I almost got into big trouble over it, too. This was just before the beginning of a school play, and one boy said nastily to the girl seated next to me, "I didn't know there were going to be lesbians." I almost turned to him and said, "No? But I saw your mom here earlier." Heh.)

But, yeah. Homosexuality was just...outside my sphere until a few of my classmates came out of the closet. I probably knew plenty of homosexuals, but it just didn't register.

So, yeah. While I can buy James, Lily, and Peter supporting their friends - because that's the sort of people they are - I don't think the fact of Sirius and Remus's homsexuality would be obvious to anyone.

[obeetaybee.livejournal.com]

I'm five years younger than you, but I had no idea what homosexuality was as a child. I had no concept of what the word 'gay' meant in today's slang until I was in 5th or 6th grade at the earliest.

Now, my daughter and I had a discussion about Willow and Tara about two years ago, because my daughter and I discovered we both love Buffy wholeheartedly and she of course had a bunch of questions about their relationship. I kept it very simple, just letting her know that sometimes, men fall in love with men and women fall in love with women. I told her that if we are very lucky in life, we'll find someone to love who loves us back in return and if it happens to be someone of the same sex, well then, so what.

I have a cousin who is gay and to this day has never 'officially' come out to the family, even though she's been living with her partner for almost fifteen years.

I'll just never forget how she thanked me when I invited both her and Adele to my wedding and I placed both of their names on the invitation instead of C********* B*** and Guest.

(Of course, in hindsight, I don't blame her for not coming out to the family and no I don't think it's something she HAS to do because I have only cousins who still like to talk crap about her, even though she's 100x more successful then they are.)

And yeah...writing fic and Remus and Sirius which was the whole point of your post, right? I'm trying to remember now, but I don't think I've ever written anything where they are open and obviously gay and OMG SO IN LOVE AND EVERYONE KNOWSS!!!! KTHXBYE!!.

I think I like the subtext to be there, but for it not to be so flamboyant. The subtlties of their relationship is what draws me to them, and why I enjoy writing them.

[obeetaybee.livejournal.com]

because I have OTHER cousins who still like to talk crap about her, even though she's 100x more successful then they are

[ellid.livejournal.com]

Sodomy was decriminalized in the United States thanks to the Lawrence v. Texas ruling in 2003. However, statutory rape is still on the books in most places, with the usual age of consent being around 16 unless a couple marries.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

I remember quite well when that ruling came out (I was on vacation in NC), but the newspaper article I read made it seem as if the Supreme Court only struck down Texas's law because it only made sodomy illegal for same-sex couples but permitted it for het couples. The impression I was left with was that states (like NC) with laws against sodomy for everyone were not effected. (But of course, such a law would effect gay couples more than het ones.)

In light of your comment, I looked up a few articles on the ruling and how it's been interpreted. Thankfully, you're right. The laws are still on the books, but this ruling should make them toothless.

Thanks for commenting.

[konishi-zen.livejournal.com]

I have come across those kinds of fics and even though they are cool, I have to raise an eyebrow at them. I was more aware than most children about homosexuality (Partly because I had seen men kissing and my brother brought his gay and lesbian friends home for dinner and my family was very open about it)but I also got the hint that it wasn't something to be public about as we are now.

I didn't catch on that my father's old boss was bi for the longest time. I simply thought he lived with other men to save rent on his big house. My dad told me about him when I was fifteen (that was when I finally came out to my family about my own bisexuality also)and he was extremely matter of fact about it as well, but he never mentioned it ever again. He didn't think it was something to bring out over and over again.

I think that was all from 1990-1994 (eleven to fifteen for me) so I guess I was kind of in the middle transitional stage from the old days to the new.

I think the best fic about Sirius being gay that portrays it a bit more realistically is copperbadge's "Cartographer's Craft" in which Sirius is gay and only like five people know and he is very discreet about it. That makes more sense, that there are hints around, but everyone sees otherwise. Like you said, this was the 70's and I sincerely doubt that how sheltered they all were, they would have a hint of what was going on between the two, really.

Cheers and thanks for the food for thought.

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

A digression:

I grew up in the theatre, and as a result was exposed very early to flaming men. When I was 9, my parents had a family emergency and on short notice couldn't get a sitter for the weekend, so they left me with Stephen, the director of the show I was in at the time, and his partner Vic. People accused my mother of child abuse. CHILD ABUSE. Because two gay men babysat a prepubescent girl for a weekend. Because in Ohio in the mid-80's, "gay" was shorthand for "child molester."

That same year, another former director of mine was diagnosed with AIDS. This was very early in the epidemic and misconceptions were rife. All people seemed to know was that it was a "gay disease." When most other people had abandoned Richard out of fear and misinformation, Stephen, Vic, and my mother were some of the only people that continued to take care of him, to visit him in the hospice, and to be with him when he died. My parents recieved DEATH THREATS-- anonymous letters shoved through our mail slot-- because someone out there believed that they were going to infect the neighborhood with that "faggot" disease. Honestly, I was pretty oblivious to all of this until years later. I came home from school once and they were talking to a policeman-- they told me someone had broken into the garage. It wasn't until I was 16 or so that they told me the whole story.

So unfortunately, I didn't realize until I was 16 or so just how heroic my mother was, her compassion overriding her own fears and a gross lack of legitimate information. I'm proud that when it was most important, my mother's humanity overrode midwestern suburban "family values."

[mysid.livejournal.com]

Wow. Standing ovation for your parents!

[magnetic-pole.livejournal.com]

Such an interesting post, Mysid. I do think the issue has a lot to do with when you grew up (I was born in 1972, so my high school was in the late 1980s and my college in the early 90s, just on the cusp, like you, I think), as well as with the kind of culture you grew up in (class and religion and urban/suburban/rural location and race/ethnicity/immigrant status also playing a large part).

I think most of us can point out that eye-opening moment in our own lives (When did you first realize that you or someone you knew was gay? When did you feel comfortable discussing it?) and for mainstream, white, middle-class American popular culture, at least, the same thing seems to be happening at a much large scale these days. Perhaps elsewhere, too? I think slash--fictional worlds in which same-sex relationships are the rule and not the exception--is actually part of that cultural change. It's funny to think about, sometimes, that we've watched cultural change so much in this regard. (Because 33 and 39 are *not* old!)

One of my own problems with "the gay issue" in slash fic is also the reaction and acceptance of friends and family. It has something to do with the fic I tend to read (HP Marauder generation, thus 70s and 80s) but also something to do with my own ideas about prejudice: I just don't think that we can isolate it and condemn it as easily as we do in fiction. Having a prejudice isn't something that you can and should get rid of like last season's fashions--it's about the way you see the world, about what you view as right and wrong and desirable and not desirable on the most basic levels. It's about who you view as having power and privilege in the world, and how you experience your own privilege, if you're part of the majority. You can be told that it's harmful and biased and wrong, but chances are that it's deeply rooted in the way you live your life, and it's not just the "prejudiced" who suffer from it, but the oppressed minority, too, who probably deal with it on a day-to-day basis.

I love the idea that James and Peter and Lily would find Remus and Sirius *obviously* gay and support their relationship, but I can't find it realistic, either in the WW of the 70s or 80s or in the Muggle world of today. Even the sudden burst of LGBT visibility we're seen recently doesn't mean acceptance.

Then again, maybe realism isn't the aim here, and we're working out the way we *want* to feel about these issues, not the way we actually experience them.

Sorry to ramble! Maggie

[magnetic-pole.livejournal.com]

Yikes! Re-read my own post, distressed to discover: 1) small typos, sorry, and 2) too much ambiguity on the issue of prejudice. I'm not arguing here that we need to accept prejudice in any way, just making the point that it has a logic of its own that we need to understand if we want to write about it. On the issue of sexuality, straights have much more invested in institutionalized heterosexuality than we'd initially suspect, and those of us who are LGBT need to deal with its institutional as well as personal effects.

There's an interesting article on the issue here: "Daily Effects of Straight Privilege". (http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~hyrax/personal/files/student_res/straightprivilege.htm) Doesn't deal with the historical issue at all--sorry, Mysid--but can help writers think about the ways being gay/straight manifests itself in daily life.

Sorry again for my long post! Maggie

[mysid.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've read many fics where everyone in the story is completely accepting and supportive (except whoever it is in the story we're supposed to boo and hiss at--Sirius's parents, Snape, etc.) and I think those are definitely cases of a writer trying to create a world where attitudes are as they wish them to be.

But I've read many stories (and now that I think about, they were probably on ff.net) which give me the impression that the writer really doesn't realize what attitudes or perceptions would have been in the 70's. Ah, youth. I'm glad they don't know any better--unless they are writing about it.

[magnetic-pole.livejournal.com]

So true. And forgive me for being a little cynical, but I also suspect some of these writers don't realized what attitudes or perceptions are out there today. Sometimes I find it charming and escapist, sometimes I want everyone to know a little better. (smile) Maggie

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU. I'm about 7 years younger than you, so I too remember that you just didn't talk about being gay. Ever. I actually JUST (in the past year) found out that Freddie Mercury was gay, because no one would talk about it around me, because of how he died. (And then I never bothered to watch videos.) And it just never occurred to me to seriously question it. I remember a friend trying to kiss me, and it never even dawned on me that that's what she was doing.

I can understand acceptance by certain people (especially James and Lily) in fanfic stories, but yeah, everyone thinking it's sweet and automatically knowing just drives me insane. It's one of my surefire backbutton issues. (It's also partly what drives me nuts about McG's "little more love in the world" quote. I hate it when fanfic authors do that, let alone the real author!)

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

This seems to be a very big part of atmosphere - I don't really care in a silly, fluffy fic, but in a longer fic, it seems weird that two boys go to the school dance together and people think it's cute. Whether or not it is cute, I don't think that would have been the first thing on people's minds at a fairly conservative school in the 1970's. I mean, I didn't meet a single person who I knew to be gay (of course, there were some!) until I left my rural hometown and went to university in 1994. "Gay" was only beginning to be the insult it is now. "Woman" was a more popular insult, as unpleasant as that is.

If an author has established a difference in perceptions of homosexuality between the muggle world and the wizard world, that's fine. But it's very rare. I'd love to see Wizarding San Francisco or inner-city Sydney or Adelaide in the 1970's - that would be fascinating!

[mysid.livejournal.com]

Isn't it funny to wonder how many people we knew who were gay while we naively believed we didn't know anyone who was gay. "Not in my town/school/family."

Hmm...wizarding San Francisco or Manchester...sounds like a plot bunny. (Too bad the plot bunnies keep reproducing on my laptop but never grow up into finished fics.)

[myfatbudgie.livejournal.com]

Hm. I'm older than you, and I knew gays and lesbians who were out of the closet in college. In fact, I ran around with one gay man. I was always hyper aware of who was gay, and who wasn't. He would confirm my suspicions, usually. I just knew. I also got hit on myself. Where I'm from, it wasn't exactly legal. Still isn't. It's not likely to be a problem unless you engage in public sex, or if you're a high profile hypocrite. I think the reason everyone feels so comfortable in coming out despite the laws and despite the ultra-religious right having a big influence here, is that bad manners are considered worse than sodomy-at least in practice, lol. I know that some people have moved from allegedly more liberal states, and have felt more comfortable being out here. I'm not saying this place is a paragon of tolerance, because it isn't. Disapproval is high here, it's just rarely put into action. I can remember my mom telling me about some gay men who flirted openly with each other in her workplace's cafeteria, no consequences for it either, and that was back in the sixties. My dad was hyper aware of gays, but not as just being curious as to who was dating material and who wasn't, unfortunately. Maybe that's the reason I caught on to it at a very young age.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

"...bad manners are considered worse than sodomy..."

May I ask what region you live in?

[myfatbudgie.livejournal.com]

I live in the Southwest.

[myfatbudgie.livejournal.com]

PS: I got more flack for being an atheist than the gays got for being gay. Maybe deep down, even people who hold right-wing religious beliefs know that homosexuality is not a choice, whereas religious beliefs are most definitely a choice.

[emily-anne.livejournal.com]

(here via the daily_snitch)

Sodomy was still a criminal offense in the UK until 1972

It was 1967, though the Wolfenden Report (the government report which recommended that homosexuality be decriminalised) was first published in 1957. This only applied to England and Wales, though - in Scotland it was still illegal until 1980.

Anyway, I agree with everything you've said here. I'm in my mid-20s so I'm part of the transitional generation. I remember as a child that homosexuality was something I talked and joked about with my friends but we never ever talked about it with adults. When I was 11 we had a sex ed class where the teacher asked us to write anonymous questions on bits of paper, put them all in a hat, and then she picked them out at random to answer them. Someone had written a question asking about homosexuality and the teacher got very flustered and quite angry and told us she couldn't talk about that. Which was actually true - Section 28 did forbid her from talking about gay sex with us. This was in the early 90s.

I think a lot of the fics you describe are wishful thinking on the part of the author, though they do seem to be ignoring the fact that the WW appears to be very conservative when it comes to sex. If anything, I think wizarding society would be even less accepting of homosexuality than Muggle society.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the correction. I wonder why I had 1972 in my head? (And as far as R/S fics go, it was still illegal for those under 21, i.e. Remus and Sirius.)

And I agree completely that wizarding society would probably be even more conservative than muggle society.

[moonyswhitewolf.livejournal.com]

Thanks for bringing this up, and what a great discussion.
My parents where mortified when my ex and I had a m/m couple babysit our kids when we went on vacation. I'm so glad my children have been raised in a different environment than I was.
Our eldest daughter is bi and lives constantly with the fear that her grandparents will never speak to her again if they find out.
So glad to have one of my favourite authors bring this up.