None for me, thanks.

[mysid]

I am not a religious person, nor am I a spiritual person. I feel no need for it in my life; there is no "void" without it. I am content believing that this life is what we get, all we get, and when we die, that's it.

I have nothing against religion. I know many people derive comfort and strength from their beliefs, and I'm happy for them that they do. My husband goes off to church every Sunday; fine with me as long as I don't have to go with him. Our kids go to Sunday school. It's fine with me; I used to go when I was a kid.

But do I believe there is a God or gods? No. Do I believe there is an afterlife? No. Am I confrontational about it? No.

If someone asks, I'll tell the truth. I don't make a big deal about it. I understand that faith (or lack of it) is a personal thing. I'm not going to lie about it, but I don't "proselytize for atheism" either.

So, why does my lack of religious belief make some people become defensive?

Take my neighbor, for example. J and I often go for walks together while our kids are at school, and we have long talks on many subjects. She's Catholic, and she knows that I was raised Catholic. When she asks why I don't go to church any more, I told her, "I don't believe in God."

She then asked many follow-up questions such as, "Do you believe in heaven?" "Where do you think we go when we die?" etc. She also said that believing in heaven helped her deal with her mother-in-law's recent death and her own elderly mother's ill health.

I answered her questions, but didn't try to convince her that I was right, or that she was wrong. (Like that would have worked!) I changed the conversation when I could.

Ever since that conversation, whenever the topic of conversation has turned to anything spiritual--and it only does so if J brings it up--she says defensively, "Now I know you don't belive this, but..." and warns, "Don't laugh at me."

I don't! I don't laugh; I don't smirk; I don't get snarky.

Well, I did once. J went to a psychic. The psychic said that J's late grandmother said that J was the reincarnation of a baby the grandmother miscarried. I refrained from pointing out that Catholic doctrine discourages going to psychics, but I couldn't resist pointing out that Catholic doctrine states that there is no such thing as reincarnation.

I couldn't resist. Honest.


(P.S. It should go without saying that I want other people's religious beliefs kept out of my personal life and out of our laws. But that's entirely different subject, and I'd just be preaching to the choir in this group anyway.)

Update: Old story, but I have to mention it. I attended a Catholic high school. When I was a senior, the math teacher, Sr. Helen, found out that I didn't believe in God. After questioning me about it, she told me, "You should pray to the Blessed Mother that you find faith again."

I had to point out that since I didn't believe in God or "the Blessed Mother," that there was no way I would pray to either.

She pursed her lips (she was rather McGonagall-ish) and said that she would pray on my behalf. I told her that was fine. After all, if it made her feel better, who was I to say no?

Comments

[fantomeq.livejournal.com]

Christianity still baffles me sometimes. Some members believe in psychics and ghosts, thinking they're sending messages from their families, and some swear they're real but evil. To some (most, in fact) Christians, life is a great cosmic battle between good and evil and they're actually terrified of Hell, and therefore the people they believe will go there either need desperately to be saved from suffering or are secretly evil. I've been an atheist for ten years, and it's funny because I "sin" less now than when I was Christian, and I'm so very much happier with my life.

I think you're lucky your friend is still talking to you at all. I'm in a touchy environment here in which most of my neighbors are Mormon, and many of them believe they'll go to Hell just for talking to me. I've never even said what religion I am or am not, but they know the age at which I had my first child and that I'm not a member of their parish church up on the corner. It sounds like your husband must go to a nice church. I went to several youth groups when I was a kid, and the Evangelicals in particular laid it on thick that my family was going to Hell for not coming to church each week and that they'd drag me down to evil with them. I think I've developed a major chip about that and the treatment of women and gays--and the infighting between sects of Christianity. I've got three sets of straight family members that various churches refused to marry because they belonged to different churches.

When the time comes that she starts asking questions, I don't know whether to expose my daughter directly to the nasty catfighting churches or to the Unitarians who are liberal and tolerant but are an unrealistic view of the world as a whole.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

As much as I disliked The Final Battle, the final book in the Narnia series and my least favorite, I have to say that I liked the way C.S. Lewis explains hell in it.

I'd previously heard heaven explained as "being united with God" and feeling perfect peace as a result. All the fluffy cloud stuff was just to make it easier to imagine for those who need imagery.

In The Final Battle, Aslan (God) says that those who don't believe in heaven can't see it. He's showing to them; they just refuse to see it, feel it, etc. They are in hell(not in heaven=in hell) not because he is punishing them, but because they simply refuse to see heaven. He can't force them to see it because free will does them in. (As it will me if I'm wrong. [Grin])

As for the way many churches treat gays: Well, my friend J is a lesbian, and her local parish church hasn't chased her or her partner out yet. In fact, their daughter just made her First Communion, and she went up to the front of the church flanked by her two moms just like her classmates went up with their parents. Some Christians really are all right.

[fantomeq.livejournal.com]

I think there are a lot of different views of Heaven, some more corporeal than others. Look at the way the Rapture's viewed.

I always felt that a god would give people second chances if they're willing to learn and are good people, rather than worrying about if they're Lutheran, Catholic, or Jewish.

Wow, and she's Catholic? Sounds like you live in a very tolerant area. Where I was from, we still have the Klan, and Matt Hale's church started there.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

New Jersey! And we've got civil unions now, woo-hoo!

[fantomeq.livejournal.com]

That's totally awesome. I've lived in Idaho the past couple years, and they just banned gay marriage in the state constitution.

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Maybe the fact that someone can be perfectly well-adjusted and pleasant and NOT believe in any sort of god makes them feel threatened. I don't know. It's something I find myself wondering about fairly frequently, though.

Maybe they're afraid that the atheist will - intentionally or not - somehow cause them to doubt God's existence.

I keep thinking I should make a post about why I'm an atheist. I hesitate because I don't want to come across as preachy and I don't want to get into a debate. I'm not interested in converting anyone and I certainly do not want anyone attempting to convert me. I just want to present my side in a way that says, "Look! I'm an atheist! I'm not threatening! I just want to be left ALONE."

[mysid.livejournal.com]

"Maybe they're afraid that the atheist will - intentionally or not - somehow cause them to doubt God's existence."

Kind of like those people out there who are homophobic because they're insecure about their own sexuality. "Ooh, don't make a pass at me. I might like it."


And I know what you mean about posting a "Why I believe what I believe" post. It's hard to do with coming across as preachy.

[rynne.livejournal.com]

I'm another atheist who doesn't believe in an afterlife. I don't mind telling people that if they ask, or explaining why if they want me to, but I don't advertise it. It just gets me a lot of hassle and debate that no one can possibly win.

Sometimes I hover on the line of agnosticism, because sometimes it seems like this world is too amazing for everything to have happened by chance, but I think I'll always have difficulty with the concept of an omniscient, omnipotent God. And even if I didn't have that difficulty, I can't imagine ever joining any sort of organized religion--I believe there are far too many religions and religious subsets for anyone to have gotten it completely right.

[mysid.livejournal.com]

I used to describe myself as an agnostic for the same reason, but I figured if there was some mega-conciousness out there which had set the universe in motion, it didn't concern itself with our day to day lives--and it definitely didn't give a rat's *** whether or not anyone worshipped it.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I think it's because religion is such a personal and intimate thing. I am religious to an extent, and I could see myself saying the things that J. says. The existance of God is something people can't prove, and when you're confronted with someone who doesn't believe in Him/Her, it can almost feel like you're not a logical person.

Two other thoughts:

1.) It sounds like J. is afraid that talking about religion could be viewed as offensive or that she's trying to convert you. That's almost what I hear when I read the paragraph: "This isn't what you believe, but I know there are plenty of people out there who would try to change your mind and I'm not one of them." In fact, I'm having a hard time NOT including my personal philosophy about faith.

As Christians, we aren't supposed to judge, but at the same time, Christianity is held up as the "right" way. Accept Christ, be Saved, right? Implicit in that general philosophy is a sort of spiritual superiority. And for those of us that accept that the whole world isn't Christian (or even religious), it's an awkward feeling to cope with. I mean, me saying "well, I think it's okay that you're an atheist" is totally elitist. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I am an authority on the existance of God or in any way fit to pass judgement on someone. But on the other hand, Christians DO have such a judgmental reputation that saying "I'm not judging you" is sometimes essential.

I have NO idea if I'm making sense right now. :P

2.) I've met atheists who were every bit as militant and intent on converting people as Christians. :) Fanatics of any sort scare the living daylights out of me! But I've felt like I have to defend my religious beliefs before.

Also, I know that I personally have a thinner skin about something like that- it goes up there with weight issues or my parenting ability, in a way. It's something that's so intimate and important that a smaller cutting comment has a bigger impact. I remember riding in a car with my mom and putting in a Michael W. Smith tape (very Christian). In truth, I just liked his music. My mom made a comment about "you're not turning holy roller on me, are you?" For some reason, that comment has stuck with me and influenced how I express my faith ever since. And normally, I'm pretty capable of blowing my mom off if she says something I don't agree with.

Anyway, that's my overly coherent babbling about your post :)

[mysid.livejournal.com]

Gee, you're a Christian? I never would have guessed that after reading "Though I Speak with the Tongues of Men and Angels". ;)

I get what you mean about my neighbor's possible motivation in couching her statements with "I know you don't believe this, but...", but I don't think it's what you suggest. Some people would mean what you said--absolutely--but that's not what she's saying. It's in the tone. She's definitely defensive. "Don't think you're better than me because you don't need to believe this."

I was probably a bit of a "militant atheist" when I was younger, but in my defense, I was (A) a teenager and therefore automatically obnoxious, and (B) attending a Catholic school and felt honor bound to provide an alternate viewpoint to the "official" one being poured into my classmates. Someone had to!